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John Miles wrote:
>BTW, I take a great deal of effort in tracking down (and documenting) the
source material I am using.
Unfortunately, your 'source material' was largely post-hoc apologetic efforts
of spin doctors like Kirkham and JF Smith, instead of the first-hand, unedited,
unspun words of actual participants.
> I would appreciate it if you would provide the same service for the material
So, what you're trying to say is, that the 'documentation' you provided before,
from secondhand writers like Kirkham, JF Smith, etc., is all that you've been
exposed to, and you need me, an 'anti-Mormon', to provide the original sources
that tell the whole story. You claim to have 'researched the subject
extensively', but you want me to do your homework for you.
>as anti-Mormons have in the past exhibited an annoying tendency to take things
out of context (in my own and others' experience).
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My experience in four years on ARM has shown me that about 99% of people
claiming to be Mormons don't know the meaning of the word 'context.' I feel
that one of my contributions to ARM is to put Mormon history into its proper
context. That's the only way to make any sense of it.
>>Emma, Martin Harris, and Joseph Knight very clearly related the 'face in the
hat' version of the 'translation.'
>My point was not that an account(s) of using the seer-stone was not available.
You're backpedaling again. Earlier, your motive was to discredit David
Whitmer's account of the 'face in the hat' method on the basis that it was the
'only one,' that it was 'hearsay,' and that Whitmer wasn't close enough to the
process to render an opinion. But now, you're admitting that there were other
accounts that corroborated Whitmer's, so therefore, your earlier attempted
discreditation of Whitmer isn't worth the price of a Palmyra peepstone.
>Just the opposite, as my post clearly states in several places.
Your original post also claimed that 'the reports of Smith's peep-stoning
seemed to originate from 'Mormonism Unvailed',' meaning that at best, you're
contradicting yourself. Look, Miles, all you have to do is admit that you're
unschooled on the facts, and that your 'documentation' consists only of the
censored portions disseminated by Mormon apologists. It's no shame to admit
that you're wrong, and it would save a whole lot of unnecessary typing and
>As far as I had researched (which is quite extensive
If your research is 'quite extensive,' then why are you begging me to provide
references for such things as Emma's testimony?
>and includes other accounts that the boilerplate anti-Mormon responses
duplicated everywhere in print and on the web deliberately ignore),
To which 'boilerplate anti-Mormon responses' do you refer? Can you give us
instances of 'anti-Mormon' publications which do not 'include other accounts,'
as you allege?
>all four individuals had *not* provided descriptions of the account and those
accounts that *were* given were not necessarily based on eye-witness accounts
but more likely on hearsay
If we so desired, we could label anything we wished from that period as
'hearsay.' In the 19th century, there were no tape or video recorders. We
could call the 'testimony of the three witnesses', or Joseph Smith's 1838
history 'hearsay,' because those accounts were not written in the handwriting
of the testators, but were rather dictated to scribes or interviewers. They
weren't even notarized legal affidavits (as opposed to Hurlbut's.) We can
'cherrypick' to our hearts' desire, discarding all evidence that disagrees with
our chosen position, and only keeping that which does. But that is simply
When you seek to discredit testimony from Emma Smith, David Whitmer, Martin
Harris, Joseph Knight, etc., on those grounds, then you might as well throw out
everything claimed to be from the mind and mouth of Joseph Smith as
well---because very little of what he ever allegedly said was written by his
own hand, but came through 'hearsay' secretaries.
The 'standard' *I* use for determining credibility of statements is reasonable
and simple: One, if it comes from a Mormon-friendly or Mormon-published
source, Mormons cannot rationally dismiss it as 'anti-Mormon' or 'hearsay.'
Two, if a story is corroborated by multiple independent testators, that
indicates a high likelihood of accuracy. Seeing as how people like Emma, David
Whitmer, Harris, William Smith, etc., continued to be quoted as verifying the
'face in the hat' version until late in the 19th century---from interviews by
their fellow Mormons, and in numerous publications--- it is futile to attempt
to dismiss their combined testimonies as hearsay or unreliable.
> that was widely rumored from, primarily, anti-Mormon sources (though those
repeating the 'history' would not have necessarily been aware of it and may, in
fact, have found widespread acceptance among the Mormon population).
<chuckle> You're incredible. You're theorizing that Joseph Smith's earliest,
most intimate followers---the very people who married him, fed him, housed him,
wrote for him, and joined his church upon its inception---also managed to
somehow, incredibly, be swayed by untrue rumors from 'anti-Mormons' to the
point of believing THEM, instead of trusting in what they had experienced and
seen with their OWN EYES? Blogall islamic content in one place.
You're some piece of work, Mr. Miles. You're already a candidate for the
'Woody Brison Most Deluded Mormon' award for 2001.
Here are some of the original sources of the quotes which you ignorantly allege
to be 'anti-Mormon':
Emma Smith related her account to her son, Joseph Smith lll, shortly before her
death in 1879. As I referenced above, it was published in the RLDS 'Saints
David Whitmer's account, already quoted, was published in 'An Address to All
Believers in Christ' in 1887, while Whitmer was still alive. That pamphlet has
been quoted countless times by numerous LDS historians. Whitmer also stated:
'I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and
Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did
not use the plates in translation.'
This statement was made in an interview with the 'Kansas City Journal,' June 5,
1881, and reprinted in the RLDS 'Journal of History', vol. 8, (1910), pp.
In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints
Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his 'Peep stone' to do the
translation. Whitmer replied:
'.. he used a stone called a 'Seers stone,' the 'Interpreters' having been
taken away from him because of transgression. The 'Interpreters' were taken
from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms
[manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on
and translate by use of a 'Seers stone' which he had, and which he placed in a
hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original
character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English.'
I've already quoted Martin Harris' testimony from his 1859 interview with
'Tiffany's Monthly' magazine. Mormon Edward Stevenson also interviewed Harris:
'Martin Harris related an incident that occured during the time that he wrote
that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to
write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the
Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as
from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone,
Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone,
sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and
when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence
would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly
it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was
engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used.'
(Edward Stevenson, 'One of the Three Witnesses,' reprinted from Deseret News,
30 Nov. 1881 in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)
Joseph Knight's account of the 'face in the hat' version was taken from his own
dictated journal, and can be read in full at BYU's website at
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Mr. Miles, do you consider BYU's website to be an 'anti-Mormon' source?
In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated: 'When Joseph was
translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his
immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of
procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat,
then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting
his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the
scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down.'
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse, Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12 (June
15, 1879), pp. 190-91.)
Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the 'face in the hat' version:
'The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim,
which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by
covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by
the power of God' ('A New Witness for Christ in America,' Francis W. Kirkham,
I'm sure you remember that Kirkham is the same LDS author from whom you quoted
the following earlier:
'From Francis W. Kirkham, _A New Witness for Christ in America_,
The use of a seer stone by Joseph Smith buried in a hat to exclude the light,
seemed to have had its origin and emphasis in Mormonism Unveiled, 1834.'
In one part of his book, Kirkham alleges that the 'face in the hat' version
'originated with Mormonism Unvailed'; yet, later, he quotes Joseph Smith's own
brother's testimony of the 'face in the hat' version!
Note also that William Smith related that 'the Urim and Thummim was placed in a
hat,' which makes it obvious that the 'Urim and Thummim' and the
'peep-stone(s)' were one and the same.
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Now, Mr. Miles, in all those quotes I provided, did you detect any from
'anti-Mormon' sources? Do you have any reason to believe that any of those
accounts are unreliable?
>What you have provided below merely indicates the rumors being repeated and
perhaps faulty memory given the contradictions by more primary sources and even
within his own accounts.
We could dismiss any testimony, from anybody, on any subject, in any case,
based on such reasoning. At some point, the intelligent, rational human mind
has to accept the fact that the combined weight of the numerous testimonies
renders the idea of their being 'rumors' or 'faulty memory' impossible. But if
you want to believe that all of those Mormons were really that unreliable,
that's your privilege. In doing so, you're destroying the credibility of the
very people that were Joseph Smith's most intimate, trusted relatives and
> Even today, there are a number of 'urban legends' that exist in the Church
that even I had taken as fact when younger and before doing any research or
All of Mormonism itself is an 'urban legend.' It began as a legend, and bigger
and bigger legends have had to be invented to support it ever since.
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